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Small fruit tree that will tolerate shade?


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coolaboola
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:03 pm    Post subject: Small fruit tree that will tolerate shade? Reply with quote

Any recommendations?

The spot I'm thinking of is near a wall by my composter, it gets sun in the morning during the summer.
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foxroxks
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you put a trellis on the wall you could try wineberry. It has a lovely small sweet berry & does well in the shade
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coolaboola
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that suggestion Foxrocks. Actually, I already have raspberry growing nearby, so I'm thinking maybe something more 'tree-like'?
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BlackBird
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coolaboola most apple trees will cope with a bit of shade. But try to seek out and old fashioned variety as these seem more tolerant of less than perfect planting locations.
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coolaboola
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks blackbird! Just a thought - Aldi are selling fruit trees as the moment - would they be worth a go?
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walltoall
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:35 pm    Post subject: fruit in the shade Reply with quote

Begod you're popping up all over the place! The ultimate fruits for a shady place have to be red currants and/or white currants. My whites produce massive crops on a north-facing wall which never ever gets a ray of sunshine! . Blackcurrants thrive well if they get some sun. The more sun blackcurrants get the more fruit you get! But they do tolerate shade. They love water but hate water-logging.
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coolaboola
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am! Smile Spring is sprung and I seem to be getting a gardening buzz with avengence this year Smile

Thanks for your tips walltoall. I'm still set on a tree though - partly because I already have berry bushes in the form of raspberries planted last year (2 x Autumn Bliss, 1 x Malling Promise) ... must figure out how to prune those, now that I think of it.

Another reason for wanting a tree, particularly an apple tree, is that I splurged at the weekend and bought and planted a Coronet Red Windsor, a miniature apple tree that I've planted in a big container. Although its a self-fertile variety I understand that even self-fertile varieties will benefit from the presence of another apple tree in the vicinity to increase yields.
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walltoall
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:56 am    Post subject: So called self fertile Reply with quote

I agree with you totally coolaboola. 'Self-fertile' has a whiff of 'genetically modified' about it, even though I know many self fertile varieties. Get the second apple and damn the begrudgers. I bought a so called self fertile plum about four years ago and so far I've had two plums off it and that was in 2006. You've just given me a wicket solution. Plant a dwarf apple. The bees won't notice.
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BlackBird
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coolaboola wrote:
Thanks blackbird! Just a thought - Aldi are selling fruit trees as the moment - would they be worth a go?


Just saw this now sorry. Looks like you have taken a punt anyway and got your self an apple tree. Smile


coolaboola wrote:

Another reason for wanting a tree, particularly an apple tree, is that I splurged at the weekend and bought and planted a Coronet Red Windsor, a miniature apple tree that I've planted in a big container. Although its a self-fertile variety I understand that even self-fertile varieties will benefit from the presence of another apple tree in the vicinity to increase yields.


Same as walltoall said, always best to have a partner. Wink

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coolaboola
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As with so many things in life - better with a partner! Smile An interesting point though, do you need to use apples to pollinate apples (i.e. is it about sharing pollen) or can you use another fruit tree that flowers at a similar time (i.e. is it about attracting bees to do the pollinating?)

I did indeed get a little apple tree - madly expensive so it better 'put out'

I went bonkers this weekend and bought two (apparently self fertile) plums - two to increase the chances of pollination even if they are self fertile. They, unlike the apple tree, were a bargain at €4.99 each in Lidl (one 'Victoria' and the other 'Opal')

Now I'm faced with another query - I'd love to plant these side by side in my front garden (aka my 1m by 4m flower bed) but wonder if that would mean they're too close together. According to the lable their final height will be between 10 and 12 feet. How close can I go?
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walltoall
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:42 pm    Post subject: keeping our distance from our trees Reply with quote

Botanically speaking you can plant the trees along side each other so that the branches intertwine! As long as both get enough sun and soil to thrive that's the limit. The bees (provided you have bees coming to your place) don't differentiate. Sometimes failure to pollinate can be down to an absence of bees. Pollen can travel in the breeze and do the job. But the breeze is a bit hit-and-miss, whereas bees are deadly accurate. And a bee on a mission can bring in different pollens from quite a distance on either leg or both.

A practical approach in distancing your trees from each other would be to give room for pruning etc. It's all down to how much space you actually have or can supply. Or as I do when planting, consider how the growing tree will shade a bit of the garden to the north and use this to your advantage.

As for pollination, pollen has to come from a tree of the same species. Pears are pyrus. Apples are "malus". Plums are "prunus" and share with most fruit having a single stone. Certain cultivars of different species can 'cross-pollinate' but the whole subject is very complex and the results could also be complex. Nature though tries to keep it simple and it's down to fruit or no fruit .

Maybe we got a botanist among our colleagues here who would be willing to take up on this subject? Maybe we got an on-board entomologist to tell us about insect pollinators?

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Last edited by walltoall on Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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coolaboola
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! Thanks walltoall, you're a font of wisdom and knowledge.

That's great, so I can plant as close as I like really. Loads of bees last summer thanks to lavender bushes in the same bed (which are going a bit woody now despite my best efforts at pruning). Sun is in abundance in this bed (assuming its shining) and they'll have soil both from the bed and beyond.
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Liparis
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can try and take it up a small bit.
Malus, Pyrus and Prunus etc are Genera. The second name or epithet is the specific name or species. Thus Malus sylvestris (always upper case for genera - very important, not just to be awkward - and lower case for the species - again, very important) being the common apple. The proper title for say a James Grieve apple tree would be Malus sylvestris var domesticus 'James Grieves' but it's never used as such. domesticus being the variety and James Grieve being the cultivar. Cultivar epithets are always enclosed in apostraphes. Plant nomenclature is very important and not horticulture snobbery as I've often heard it called. Unfortunately, in gardening proper nomenclature is being lost. I'm not even sure if the domestic apple is a variety or a hybrid, which would then change the naming again.
By looking at the name of a plant, the way it's spelt, should automatically tell you if you have a species or a hybrid, the specific epithet of a hybrid alwys being spelt with an upper case letter as in the genus. Garden Centres don't do this anymore, they normally print labels in upper case right through.
As for pollination of apples etc. it depends on flowering period as well, for several reasons. If the two apple trees aren't in flower at the same time, this can reduce pollination to zero, hence the need to choose trees which are suitable for each other. In theory, you can have a plum tree pollinate a cherry tree or vice versus because they are of the same genera. However, it can be as hit or miss as self-fertile trees. The resulting progeny of plum/cherry would then be a specific (species) hybrid.
Bees, honey bees in particular, are probably the best pollinators, hence beekeepers would be invited to place hives in orchards in return for a jar or two of honey. The main crop, although not the only crop, from apples is pollen, some nectar will be taken, people have had crops of honey if a nectar flow has been sufficient, but often nectar is reduced due to cool weather when flowering. Another reason for non-pollination in the presence of honey bees is there may be another type of crop flowering at the same time. Bees attach importance to particular crops and may turn their backs on apples etc in favour of the other. Apples do, however stand a good chance as pollen is required for raising brood in the early spring when not a lot else is in flower, but some bee keepers say they have ignored apple in favour of a high nectar/pollen flow from early oilseed rape.
Bil

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coolaboola
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's really interesting, Liparis.

So its Genus species 'Cultivar' for the naming.

And do everything I can to encourage bees!

If the bees snub me this year (which I hope they won't) is it possible (though highly fastidiuous!) to encourage pollen manually using a soft paint brush brushing pollen from flower to flower? That is, is it possible, if you were beeless, to be the bee?
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Cindrella ella
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coolaboola wrote:


If the bees snub me this year (which I hope they won't) is it possible (though highly fastidiuous!) to encourage pollen manually using a soft paint brush brushing pollen from flower to flower? That is, is it possible, if you were beeless, to be the bee?


One of these may come in handy. Laughing

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